Sloka 17 and 18
SLOKA 17:
saMghaato.api tathaa naahamiti dR^ishyavilakShaNam.h .
draShTaaramanumaanena nipuNaM sampradhaaraya .. 17..
Pada artha:
Tatha: similarly (ascertain)
Aham: I am
Na: not
Sanghataha api iti: also the combination (of the subtle and the gross bodies).
Sampradharaya: be sure
Nipunaam: intelligently,
Anumaanenda: by inference,
Drushtaaram: of the Self, the seer,
Drushya vilakshanam: who is quite different in nature from the seen, the objects.
Convince yourself that you are also not the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies, and ascertain accurately, by means of inference, that you, the seer, are quite distinct from the seen.
In the last two slokas, we learnt from the guru explaining to the student about the Atman as different from the body and also the illusory nature of the senses. After explaining the impermanent nature of the body and then the insentient nature of the senses and the intellect, the guru here further tells that the Self is also not the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies. The body, which is made up of the five elements is insentient. Still we get the ego of the body and feel pleasure and pain due to the presence of the subtle body which consists of the mind, intellect and ego. It is these that create illusory bonding and attach the body to the Atman, and a person is deluded and believes the body to be Self. The senses and the inner organs combined create an illusion of embodiment to the body. This can be very well proved by our experience in the dream and waking state, even though the subtle body is active, one cannot feel the gross body, it is only when both are active in the waking state that the delusion of embodiment occurs. Hence after explaining the nature of the gross and the subtle body the teacher is asking the student to ascertain that the Self is also neither the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies.
By inference, logic and experience, one has to know the true nature of Atman as distinct from the objects and these bodies. The witness hood of the Self has to be understood here clearly. The guru is hence explaining to the student to know for sure and remove all doubts about the Self, just as the objects are different from the seer, the senses are different from the perceiver, the witness is different from the objects witnessed, the Self is different from the gross and subtle bodies.
For any process or action to take place, there has to be a non changing witness, action being done, the instruments with which the action is perceived and the objects undergoing changes/doing the action, i.e. those participating in the action. Objects are seen and perceived only because of the mind, intellect and the senses. It is these that create the illusory world and its happenings. Atman or Self is always present only as a witness as it never undergoes any changes and nor can be perceived by the senses. Upanishads explain this clearly as " You cannot see the seer of seeing. You cannot hear the hearer of hearing. You cannot think the Thinker of thinking. You cannot understand the Understander of understanding. That is the Atman."
Thus the Self is only is the witness, is only the seer, neither the seen nor the instruments of seeing nor the act of seeing itself. By saying that the seer is quite different from the seen, the Guru is thus explaining that the body and the intellect which undergo changes are not the Self, neither is the subtle body which perceives these actions and is subject to change itself; but you are that which is the substratum of all these and that which is ever present just as a witness. You are THAT Atman.
SLOKA 18:
dehendriyaadayo bhaavaa haanaadivyaapR^itikShamaaH .
yasya sannidhimaatreNa so.ahamityavadhaaraya .. 18..
Pada artha:
Aham: I am
Saha: he
Yasya sannidhi maatrena: by whose proximity only
Bhaavaha: non conscious entities
Deha indriya adhyaha: like the body, senses etc.
Haana aadi vyapruthi kshamaha: are able to function by the way of rejection (or acceptance)
Avadhaaraya: ascertain
Iti: this
Know yourself to be the one owing to whose proximity alone non conscious entities like the body and the senses are able to function by the way of acceptance and rejection.
In the last few slokas we learnt that the body and the senses are not the self by example of the jar and the seer, in the same way, it was also inferred that the combination of both the body and the senses are also not the seer, just as the witness or the seer will always be different from the seen, the Self is always only a witness to all the modifications of the body and the mind. Here in this sloka, the guru is telling the student the same by pointing out to the illuminating nature of the Self. While the witness hood of the Self was explained in the previous sloka, here we learn the nature of the Self as the all present illuminator i.e. the consciousness.
The guru is asking the student to know that it is only because of the Atman that even insentient objects such as the body and the senses seem to gain consciousness and function by the way of acceptance and rejection. The body as well as the inner organs are insentient and cannot function by themselves. This is very well proved by the fact that only when there is consciousness that we can feel the pain, pleasure etc. and if there is no consciousness then there is no feelings nor any senses. Hence, there is something which is beyond all these senses which gives the insentient senses and the body this consciousness. And this the Guru says is the Atman. Hence a seeker has to know that Self is that due to whose proximity alone, all the insentient objects are able to function well.
Here one may get the doubt, if the mind and the body are insentient, and the Atman is beyond all these, then how can one say that the Self can be known through mind, reasoning etc? And why is it that some say, the purpose of the human life (taken as the human body and the mind) is only to realize the reality?? The answer would be very simple if we clearly understand the nature of Self as verily consciousness.
It is that which illumines the mind and the intellect. These are like the mirrors that reflect this illumination and in turn illuminate the body and other objects of the world. It is because of these inner organs that we say, this is my hand, this is my money etc.. Here, the real ‘I’ is but the Self and that which is pointing out and creating this illusion of owner hood is the mind. Hence the ever existent Atman cannot be sensed nor understood by the senses and the mind which are them selves illusory.
Now the question comes, then how can the mind be used to know the Self? It is also true that we are studying the scriptures and understanding them only due to these inner organs. Then how can the Self be known by them when the scriptures say " You cannot see the seer of seeing. You cannot hear the hearer of hearing. You cannot think the Thinker of thinking. You cannot understand the Understander of understanding. That is the Atman." ?
We have to always remember that the Atman is ever present. We do not need another person to point out our existence nor do we need to read any scriptures to know I exist. Atman or Self is verily existence, consciousness and bliss. It is only when this true nature is forgotten that duality is perceived and the subtle and the gross bodies seem to exist. All the logic, understandings, by hearting of slokas and debates and even meditation etc.. are ONLY to remove this illusory ignorance, all these activities of the mind are only to remove the modifications of the mind and intellect so that the real nature of the Self shines forth completely. All this illusory knowledge got by these senses is only to remove the illusory ignorance. When this knowledge negates the ignorance, then the real nature of Self is revealed, like the Sun shining in clear sky without the clouds of ignorance.
This is what is called as realization by those still in the realm of ignorance. It is not anything new to be achieved that the illusory inner organs can’t procure it. It is ever existent and these inner organs only aid in negating themselves. Like a thorn used to remove another thorn, the mind is used to negate its own thoughts. These are just instruments. Once the goal is achieved, there is no need of the instrument nor the removed, like the thorn that removed and the thorn that was removed are both thrown away, the mind and the world are realized just as illusions and become so worthless. The mind and intellect reason, evaluate and argue only to pacify them selves. Thus the mind becomes a instrument, in negating itself. Once the reality is known, there are no instruments, nothing to be removed, but one and only subject, the Atman remains.
Let us learn more about the illusory nature of the senses in the next few slokas.
Hari OM
With regards,
Mallika R
What you have is God's gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to God
saMghaato.api tathaa naahamiti dR^ishyavilakShaNam.h .
draShTaaramanumaanena nipuNaM sampradhaaraya .. 17..
Pada artha:
Tatha: similarly (ascertain)
Aham: I am
Na: not
Sanghataha api iti: also the combination (of the subtle and the gross bodies).
Sampradharaya: be sure
Nipunaam: intelligently,
Anumaanenda: by inference,
Drushtaaram: of the Self, the seer,
Drushya vilakshanam: who is quite different in nature from the seen, the objects.
Convince yourself that you are also not the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies, and ascertain accurately, by means of inference, that you, the seer, are quite distinct from the seen.
In the last two slokas, we learnt from the guru explaining to the student about the Atman as different from the body and also the illusory nature of the senses. After explaining the impermanent nature of the body and then the insentient nature of the senses and the intellect, the guru here further tells that the Self is also not the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies. The body, which is made up of the five elements is insentient. Still we get the ego of the body and feel pleasure and pain due to the presence of the subtle body which consists of the mind, intellect and ego. It is these that create illusory bonding and attach the body to the Atman, and a person is deluded and believes the body to be Self. The senses and the inner organs combined create an illusion of embodiment to the body. This can be very well proved by our experience in the dream and waking state, even though the subtle body is active, one cannot feel the gross body, it is only when both are active in the waking state that the delusion of embodiment occurs. Hence after explaining the nature of the gross and the subtle body the teacher is asking the student to ascertain that the Self is also neither the combination of the gross and the subtle bodies.
By inference, logic and experience, one has to know the true nature of Atman as distinct from the objects and these bodies. The witness hood of the Self has to be understood here clearly. The guru is hence explaining to the student to know for sure and remove all doubts about the Self, just as the objects are different from the seer, the senses are different from the perceiver, the witness is different from the objects witnessed, the Self is different from the gross and subtle bodies.
For any process or action to take place, there has to be a non changing witness, action being done, the instruments with which the action is perceived and the objects undergoing changes/doing the action, i.e. those participating in the action. Objects are seen and perceived only because of the mind, intellect and the senses. It is these that create the illusory world and its happenings. Atman or Self is always present only as a witness as it never undergoes any changes and nor can be perceived by the senses. Upanishads explain this clearly as " You cannot see the seer of seeing. You cannot hear the hearer of hearing. You cannot think the Thinker of thinking. You cannot understand the Understander of understanding. That is the Atman."
Thus the Self is only is the witness, is only the seer, neither the seen nor the instruments of seeing nor the act of seeing itself. By saying that the seer is quite different from the seen, the Guru is thus explaining that the body and the intellect which undergo changes are not the Self, neither is the subtle body which perceives these actions and is subject to change itself; but you are that which is the substratum of all these and that which is ever present just as a witness. You are THAT Atman.
SLOKA 18:
dehendriyaadayo bhaavaa haanaadivyaapR^itikShamaaH .
yasya sannidhimaatreNa so.ahamityavadhaaraya .. 18..
Pada artha:
Aham: I am
Saha: he
Yasya sannidhi maatrena: by whose proximity only
Bhaavaha: non conscious entities
Deha indriya adhyaha: like the body, senses etc.
Haana aadi vyapruthi kshamaha: are able to function by the way of rejection (or acceptance)
Avadhaaraya: ascertain
Iti: this
Know yourself to be the one owing to whose proximity alone non conscious entities like the body and the senses are able to function by the way of acceptance and rejection.
In the last few slokas we learnt that the body and the senses are not the self by example of the jar and the seer, in the same way, it was also inferred that the combination of both the body and the senses are also not the seer, just as the witness or the seer will always be different from the seen, the Self is always only a witness to all the modifications of the body and the mind. Here in this sloka, the guru is telling the student the same by pointing out to the illuminating nature of the Self. While the witness hood of the Self was explained in the previous sloka, here we learn the nature of the Self as the all present illuminator i.e. the consciousness.
The guru is asking the student to know that it is only because of the Atman that even insentient objects such as the body and the senses seem to gain consciousness and function by the way of acceptance and rejection. The body as well as the inner organs are insentient and cannot function by themselves. This is very well proved by the fact that only when there is consciousness that we can feel the pain, pleasure etc. and if there is no consciousness then there is no feelings nor any senses. Hence, there is something which is beyond all these senses which gives the insentient senses and the body this consciousness. And this the Guru says is the Atman. Hence a seeker has to know that Self is that due to whose proximity alone, all the insentient objects are able to function well.
Here one may get the doubt, if the mind and the body are insentient, and the Atman is beyond all these, then how can one say that the Self can be known through mind, reasoning etc? And why is it that some say, the purpose of the human life (taken as the human body and the mind) is only to realize the reality?? The answer would be very simple if we clearly understand the nature of Self as verily consciousness.
It is that which illumines the mind and the intellect. These are like the mirrors that reflect this illumination and in turn illuminate the body and other objects of the world. It is because of these inner organs that we say, this is my hand, this is my money etc.. Here, the real ‘I’ is but the Self and that which is pointing out and creating this illusion of owner hood is the mind. Hence the ever existent Atman cannot be sensed nor understood by the senses and the mind which are them selves illusory.
Now the question comes, then how can the mind be used to know the Self? It is also true that we are studying the scriptures and understanding them only due to these inner organs. Then how can the Self be known by them when the scriptures say " You cannot see the seer of seeing. You cannot hear the hearer of hearing. You cannot think the Thinker of thinking. You cannot understand the Understander of understanding. That is the Atman." ?
We have to always remember that the Atman is ever present. We do not need another person to point out our existence nor do we need to read any scriptures to know I exist. Atman or Self is verily existence, consciousness and bliss. It is only when this true nature is forgotten that duality is perceived and the subtle and the gross bodies seem to exist. All the logic, understandings, by hearting of slokas and debates and even meditation etc.. are ONLY to remove this illusory ignorance, all these activities of the mind are only to remove the modifications of the mind and intellect so that the real nature of the Self shines forth completely. All this illusory knowledge got by these senses is only to remove the illusory ignorance. When this knowledge negates the ignorance, then the real nature of Self is revealed, like the Sun shining in clear sky without the clouds of ignorance.
This is what is called as realization by those still in the realm of ignorance. It is not anything new to be achieved that the illusory inner organs can’t procure it. It is ever existent and these inner organs only aid in negating themselves. Like a thorn used to remove another thorn, the mind is used to negate its own thoughts. These are just instruments. Once the goal is achieved, there is no need of the instrument nor the removed, like the thorn that removed and the thorn that was removed are both thrown away, the mind and the world are realized just as illusions and become so worthless. The mind and intellect reason, evaluate and argue only to pacify them selves. Thus the mind becomes a instrument, in negating itself. Once the reality is known, there are no instruments, nothing to be removed, but one and only subject, the Atman remains.
Let us learn more about the illusory nature of the senses in the next few slokas.
Hari OM
With regards,
Mallika R
What you have is God's gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to God
posted by vedanta at 8:16 PM
6 Comments:
On sloka 18:
HARI AUM
Prostrations to all.
Just a few humble comments on the below: if you consider and say that the mind is an illusion, then is negation of mind an illusion or not? If negation of mind is not an illusion, then it becomes real making mind as real. If negation of mind is not an illusion, then this makes the mind still stay as the negation is a mere illusion.............
The above is one of the arguments raised by Dvaita school against Advaita. Mallika, can you answer the same????
Also, there is a small different aspect to the Self being known by the mind & not known by the mind..... Many saints have cleared explained this which Mallika has left out. Whatever she has said is correct but this aspect which acharyas do mention has been missed out.
The Self is not known as one's own nature through an impure mind but is known through a pure and strengthened mind (mind made pure by knowledge as Mundaka says). This is where Brihadaranyaka and Katha says as "Manasaiva idam aaptavyam neha nana asthi kinchana" (Know the Self through the mind by not this technique)......... The mind is the mirror in which one can see the Self -- hence the SElf is known when mirror of mind is pure.......
As yoga vasistha beautifully puts it, when the mind becomes pure, there is nothing called mind.. Pure mind is same as no mind or just Self.
Prostrations to all.
HARI AUM
Thanks
Hariram
Let a moment not pass by without remembering God
Hari om to all,
Thanks for the precious comments for sloka 18. I pray to Lord to help me answer the purva paksha statement : “if you consider and say that the mind is an illusion, then is negation of mind an illusion or not? If negation of mind is not an illusion, then it becomes real making mind as real. If negation of mind is not an illusion, then this makes the mind still stay as the negation is a mere illusion.............”
Here we will have to first understand when this negation is illusory. At the absolute level, Negation of the mind is illusory only as is the mind itself. Negation of that which was never present has to be illusory only.
Negation of mind and the world is like killing of a dream lion. As long as a person is dreaming, he fights the lion and even kills it waking up due to the triumph and exhaustion:-). But once woken up, there is neither lion nor any killing of it. Both are known only to have occurred in the dream only which was just an illusion. (pardon the crude example..but could not think of a more realistic one.. ofc empirically :-)) thus, illusory action of a illusion cannot make it real.
Hence, similarly this negation of mind can be real only as long as the mind is also considered to be present and valid. We can definitely negate only that which is present. Hence as long as the statement that the mind exists is valid negation will be valid. But once negated, the mind will be known as illusion only, thus making its negation also as illusion. Hence the concept of negation is only at the empirical level, when mind’s existence is acknowledged and is mistaken as real. This is real only when there is ignorance to be removed. Once the ignorance is realized to be non existent and the world as illusory, the entire process of negating is also becomes illusory. Thus, the purvapaksha statement that the negation of something non existent making it as existent will be invalid here
Hari OM
With regards,
Mallika R
What you have is God's gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to God
HARI AUM
Prostrations to all.
The answer to the purvapaksha again brings us to the same purvapaksha statement itself.......
Ok, coming direct to the question --- does the mind exist or not???? If it doesn't, then there is no need of negation at all & mukthi becomes natural & no effort to liberation is required..... But if exists, then as per Sankara's statement it will exist permanently.
And also, it is idiotic to say "when this negation is illusory" --- any object if it is an illusion is ever an illusion only.... :-) It is never different from illusion.
"We can definitely negate only that which is present." -- this is wrong because that which is present can never be negated -- that which is really existent ever exists (you would have read Ramana's works where he brings this out very clearly).
"Hence as long as the statement that the mind exists is valid negation will be valid. " -- What do you say for this question - Does the mind exist or no???? If it exists, then negation is impossible -- if it doesn't exist, then the statement of "negation of mind" itself is invalid & of no use to a seeker (same question has been raised above but in different context).
"Once the ignorance is realized to be non existent and the world as illusory, the entire process of negating is also becomes illusory." -- :-)This is like telling that whatever I was doing was futile because there was nothing really to negate..... :-) then why the need of sadhana, effort etc... There is no need for studying scriptures, discussing in forums, doing various sadhanas like sravana, manana etc.......
Thus "Thus, the purvapaksha statement that the negation of something non existent making it as existent will be invalid here. " is not correct & this statement is still valid (purvapaksha statement).
Prostrations to all.
HARI AUM
Thanks
Hariram
Let a moment not pass by without remembering God
Hari OM to all,
The purvapaksha question asking if the mind exists, itself seems to be so unclear to this intellect If the mind does not exist then what is it that is asking this question? But if it does exist then why the doubt regarding its existence? Am unable to reply to this question.. hence I request someone from the group to answer this question.
One thing sure about is that it is unreal as it does not exist in all times and the answer given in the precious sloka does explain to why its negation is also illusory.
Hari OM
With regards,
Mallika R
What you have is God's gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to God
Hari Aum
Prostrations to Guru. Prostrations to all
Anything that has to be existent should exist on all periods of time. If mind has to exist then it should exist all the time. But the mind merges into the cause during deep-sleep and becomes active during waking state. Anything that doesn’t exist at a particular point in time cannot be real and hence can only be an illusion in the Reality. Any illusion doesn’t have a real existence but only seemingly existent. Since the existence of mind is an illusion the negation of the mind is also an illusion. Something existing cannot be negated as it will be ever existent, and something that is non-existent also cannot be negated because there is nothing to negate. Since the mind is seemingly existent, the negation is also an illusion.
Hari Aum
Thanks,
Rajesh
HARI AUM
Prostrations to all.
What Rajesh has written is very right. The answer to purvapaksha statement as to whether the mind is there or not is simple as Sankara gives for avidya in Gita Chapter 13 2nd sloka bhashya. He asks the question "Avidya is there for whom?" & answers as "for whom it is perceived" or "who really is ignorant".
Mind is there for the person who perceives the mind by not knowing the reality of Self & thus deviating into thoughts........
An illusion is ever an illusion whether "I" see it, Sankara sees it or Madhva sees it. Mind is an illusion because it is not eternally existent (it vanishes during deep sleep state).
Prostrations to all.
HARI AUM
Thanks
Hariram
Let a moment not pass by without remembering God
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